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CT Plot Holes in the CT

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Klingon Padawan, Mar 12, 2013.

  1. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016

    There is no indication that she probably knew. I've just provided all the indications that she didn't think she had it in him. Vader is correct that she wouldn't have consciously betrayed the rebellion in that situation regardless. But that has no bearing on whether or not she knew that Alderann would be toast once Dantouine was checked out.
     
  2. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Tarkin said he wanted a "target" to test the DS's destructive capability. It was supposed to be a demonstration. So it was reasonable for Leia to think he'd simply take the DS to Dantooine & destroy it. That her lie may never be exposed. How could she know he'd send a scouting party to investigate it first? So again, there was no sacrifice of Alderaan on her part.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  3. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    @Martoto77

    She must have been aware that the probability was high that Tarkin would exactly do that, once he discovered the lie.

    I wouldn't rule out the possibility that on the spur of the moment she acted on instinct. And it's inconclusive whether she knew that the Imperial Senate had been dissolved.

    @Darth Downunder

    I beg to differ. Leia should have rather expected the Death Star to stay in the Alderaan System to intercept anybody delivering the stolen Death Star plans (which was still the # 2 priority and most likely the reason the Death Star did stay there after Alderaan's destruction).
    At 'least' Tarkin was smart enough to verify first whether Dantooine was the place they were looking for and not to go on a wild goose chase that would have jeopardized their # 2 priority.

    The moment Leia did not reveal the location of Yavin IV - and under the assumption that Tarkin was earnest - she did risk her home planet instead.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  4. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    Nothing is provided by the movie which indicates that's exactly what she must have known he would do. We can suppose she might have considered it. But her contemptuous dismissal of his convictions and authority prior to the threat are at odds with this.
     
  5. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    LEIA Governor Tarkin, I should have
    expected to find you holding Vader's
    leash.


    Leia had witnessed how Vader and his crew had not only seized her ship, violated her diplomatic immunity and slaughtered her crew to get the Death Star plans back. In addition she had been tortured. I'm sure she understood how serious the situation was and that Tarkin meant business.
     
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  6. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Why would Tarkin etc expect anyone to deliver the plans to Alderaan & not the Alliance base? Vader believed the plans were somewhere on Tatooine, which is why he had troops there. Hence his boast that the plans will soon be back in their hands.
    The DS itself wasn't being used to locate the plans. The no 1 priority for Tarkin was to locate & destroy the Rebel base. Vader was taking care of the search for the plans. In addition Tarkin wanted to test out the DS & make a statement. Leia had every reason to expect him to go to Dantooine & destroy it.
    Curious way of looking at it. Leia was put on the spot & had seconds to think of a response. If she gave up Yavin the Rebellion would be lost, which would doom every world including Alderaan. She needed to give the Rebels time to receive the plans, analyse them & attack the station. The only way to do that was to stall. Also & as I said, by the plain reading of Tarkin's words he would go & test the station on Dantooine. So her lie would hopefully not even be exposed.
     
  7. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    First - Leia told Vader that she was on a diplomatic mission to Alderaan (and perhaps the log of the Tantive IV confirmed that)
    Second - Vader thought the plans were still on Tatooine but he had no proof for that
    Third - Since the Empire didn't know (sic) the location of the Alliance base, Alderaan was the only location they knew where someone might perhaps want to attempt to deliver the plans.

    The way I see it (and what the film ultimately suggested, IMHO) Tarkin stayed in the Alderaan System for a possible intercept of the plans but would have set course for the Alliance base immediately once it would have been confirmed. I guess he would have left one or more Star Destroyers behind to intercept a possible delivery of the plans.

    Not to locate these, but to intercept these - which is what happened.

    I do not agree. Prudence demanded that you check out the Alliance's strength and capacity first, ideally to catch the Alliance at a moment where most of its ships had assembled on its base.

    Once the Falcon had escaped, Tarkin no longer had that luxury as the Death Star plans were in the process of being delivered and analyzed, so here they had to destroy Yavin IV ASAP, regardless how many Alliance ships they could catch with the destruction.

    On the contrary, if she would have given up Yavin (assuming Tarkin would have been earnest) her homeworld Alderaan could have been spared. With the destruction of Yavin IV the galactic civil war would have probably ended as no star system would have henceforth opposed the Emperor. Alderaan's government would have undoubtedly been abolished, but the civilian population might have been spared.

    Regarding the stalling, didn't you say yourself it was a "far-fetched" (i.e. rather unrealistic) hope?

    And how much time did she really gain here? We know from ESB that it takes around or less than an hour to get from the Anoat System to "the other side of the galaxy" (Piett). The Death Star showed up in the Alderaan System after the Falcon had jumped there, by the time the Falcon arrives in the Alderaan System (one or two hours?) the Imperial scout ships had already reached Dantooine and reported back.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
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  8. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016

    There is a huge difference between transgressing diplomatic protocol and vindictively or sadistically annihilating an entire planet. Nobody had ever destroyed an entire planet before.

    Nothing supports the notion that she must have known that Alderann would be destroyed if she gave a false answer.
     
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  9. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 8, 2015
    Technically speaking correct (physical destruction of an entire planet), but what about the "sterilization" of Geonosis by the Galactic Empire?

    On the contrary I'd say this is how the Tarkin character was setup by George Lucas, i.e. he meant what he said.
    But I concur that for all audiences it must have come as shock that he'd nevertheless destroy the entire planet although Leia had provided him with the location of the Alliance base (which looked authentic, at first).
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  10. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    This is Tarkin's first real scene. In the conference scene all he gives us is exposition and the idea that he curbs Vader's crueller tendencies.

    How can George have set it up that Leia and the audience are aware that he means what he says here? He asks for a military target, or else. She gives him one. He blows up the planet anyway, just because Dantouine is too far away. It's meant as a shock to the audience and to Leia when he says "Continue with the operation...." Leia's incredulity makes no sense if George set it up for everyone to know that Tarkin means what he says - irrelevant since he threatens to blow up Alderann only if Leia cannot provide a military target. It turns out he didn't mean that. He intended to blow up Alderann in any case. It also doesn't make sense if Leia pours scorn on his capacity to even make the decision of executing her.
     
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  11. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    The destruction of all life on Geonosis except for one by the Galactic Empire was revealed in the Rebels episode "The Honorable Ones", admittedly that's not George Lucas Canon, so YMMV.

    P.S. It's "Alderaan", not Alderann
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  12. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    It's not anything any more. :(
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  13. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    TBPH you mentioned the one thing that would compell me to watch Episode IX regardless of what else is in it: New Alderaan

    I.e. a white, spherical space station that sits where Alderaan used to exist and serves as a gravemarker and memorial site, yet preserves all the knowledge and culture of Alderaan - and could become the burial place of "Queen" Leia Organa...

    @Pabawan
     
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  14. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Seems a stretch. Vader thought the plans were on Tatooine & he had the planet blockaded. Until he found out about the Falcon he was confident they'd have the plans soon. As was Tarkin. They said so in their meeting.
    That's a theory & head-canon only. Tarkin was clearly there to destroy the planet. It was premeditated, since no matter what Leia said he was going to destroy it anyway. Before that he wanted to point a gun at Leia's home planet & force her to reveal the location of the base. Then he waited there until the Rebel base was checked out.
    The Imperial meeting confirmed that neither he nor Vader were worried about the plans. In fact Tarkin never seemed particularly concerned about them at all. He even allowed Leia to escape with them. Then when he knew the Rebels had them & had attacked the station based on them he still didn't care. I can't see how or why Tarkin would expect the plans to go to Alderaan. The Alliance base is where any attack would come from. This is a side-issue anyway, Leia had no way of knowing what they were doing.
    Prudence wasn't Tarkin's thing. Hence turning up to Yavin with only the DS & without scouting out the planet at all. Before arriving there he didn't even know if the Rebel base was on Yavin. He only knew that the Falcon went there. Also, as stated to Leia he simply wanted a target planet to shoot with the DS. Nothing more. Leia thought she was saving Alderaan by naming Dantooine, while at the same time not dooming the Alliance.
    Same deal with Dantooine. The plans may've been en route there, or there already. Tarkin didn't know where they were. They could also be transmitted, as confirmed by Vader on the Tantive earlier. The only reason Tarkin didn't go straight there was that Dantooine wasn't an attractive target for him to use as a demonstration. He said that. It was too remote & out of the way. Too insignificant. Destroying it would not instill the fear that he wanted throughout the galaxy. So he had their regular Imperial forces check it out. Leia had no way of knowing his mind & his goals here.
    Sure it could have been. There are countless scenarios that could happen if she named Yavin. Or Dantooine or some other world. However it's way way too simplistic to say "Leia sacrificed Alderaan". That's absurd.
    The whole mission to destroy the DS was far-fetched & unlikely. In the end it took a miracle to pull off. Yet it was the only hope Leia had. So keeping that plan alive was all that mattered. Naming Yavin would destroy that plan. I thought every person watching the movie since '77 would know that. Given that fact, naming some other planet was the only way of maybe sparring Alderaan too. There's a chasm of difference between that & "Leia sacrificed Alderaan".
    When evaluating her decision, how much time she did gain is irrelevant. What matters is how much time she could gain. She didn't have the benefit of hindsight & she only had seconds to decide what to say.

    If she had reason to hope that Alderaan might be okay then by definition she didn't sacrifice it. Scenarios where Alderaan may still be unharmed were:

    1. Tarkin could be bluffing about destroying it. Leia said she doubted his courage to sign her execution order. For the death of one person. So what are the chances that he'd be willing to destroy an entire Imperial planet & the lives of millions of Imperial citizens?
    When someone is using an action as a means of coercion, often the threat of that action is what matters. Doesn't mean they'll follow through on it. No one had ever destroyed a whole planet in the history of the galaxy. Leia was entitled to hope that he wouldn't do that, even if she didn't answer but told him to go to hell.

    2. In addition to that, Leia had seemingly agreed to his request, which was supposed to spare Alderaan. Tarkin clearly said he'd test the station on the planet she named. He said nothing about it being conditional on its location. So Leia cleverly named a planet that could be destroyed (presumably) without loss of life. Where a Rebel base can be detected from orbit. All going well Tarkin may think he destroyed the Alliance & her gambit could spare both Yavin and Alderaan.

    3. The whole point of sending R2 to Ben Kenobi was so that the plans could get to the Alliance & they could exploit the weakness that they'd been told existed. Leia would've been hoping that Kenobi was successful & that the plans were in the hands of the Rebels. So with a bit of luck the DS would be attacked & destroyed sometime soon. So Leia had an additional hope, on top of the others as to how Alderaan might be spared, esp if Tarkin followed through on his claim to go to Dantooine & test the station on it. Which would buy precious time.

    Putting all of that together, we can say that Leia had no guarantee that by naming Dantooine Alderaan or Yavin might be saved from destruction. But to say that it was a given or that Leia "sacrificed" Alderaan is completely incorrect.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
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  15. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    I don't want to convolute this valuable thread with an endless series of speculations, so I'll make it short.

    Frankly, "absurd" would be not to have expected Tarkin to destroy Alderaan the moment he found out that Leia lied to him about Dantooine. Leia made her decision under the false assumption that Tarkin meant what he said, i.e. you tell us the location of the hidden Rebel base or we destroy Alderaan instead.

    As it turned out she did not tell him the location of the hidden Rebel base, so according to the choice offered by Tarkin Alderaan would be destroyed instead. It's that simple, and something she must have been aware of the moment she lied, i.e. she was willing to rather sacrifice Alderaan than Yavin IV.
     
  16. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    That’s a gross oversimplification of the situation. She had reason to hope that both Yavin & Alderaan might survive. There are far more layers to this. I’ve outlined them in detail so I’m happy to leave it that.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
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  17. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Darth_Downunder is correct in this situation. Tarkin isn't worried about the Death Star plans yielding a weakness, same way with Motti. They know that the Rogue One had taken the plans for a reason, but calculated that it wasn't as serious as Tagge worried. With Galen and Krennic dead, there is no way to confirm otherwise. Which is why when Tarkin is told that there is a targeted spot, he still refuses to call off the attack or leave himself.

    And there's no way that Leia sacrificed Alderaan, by naming Dantooine instead of Yavin 4. Tarkin was still going to fire either way and the only way she would sacrifice Alderaan would be to name it as the Rebel base. The only way you can argue that it is sacrificed is because Leia used the Tantive IV, a ship that is known to have belonged to the House of Organa and thus exposing Alderaan to potential retaliation from the Empire.
     
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  18. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 24, 2005
    Tarkin was going to blow up Alderaan even if Leia told him exactly where the Rebels were. His “I’ll spare Alderaan if you’ll just tell me where they are” thing was a lie.

    Granted, Leia probably hoped he would be smart enough to know that this action would only generate more hatred for the Empire...when the guy’s got his planet-destroying station aimed at your homeplanet, you’ll think of anything in the hopes he won’t actually destroy your planet.

    But sacrificing Alderaan? Hardly. As noted, no one else in recorded history had done something like that before, so she hoped Tarkin wouldn’t start now. On an Imperial world populated by people with no weapons or army. I thought it was pretty clear, she thought if she said something, anything, Tarkin would be satisfied and spare Alderaan.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
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  19. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 8, 2015
    Yes. And it turned out she did the right thing by not telling Tarkin the location of the hidden base. I also wouldn't disclose the possibility that her intuition - with a little help from the Force - helped her to make the right decision. I think we all agree, that's undisputed.

    They discussed the hypothetical ramifications. But the moment he tells her it's Alderaan on the big screen her disrespectfulness is instantly gone - and instead she humbly pleads for the millions of Alderaan lives: No! Alderaan is peaceful. We have no weapons. You can't possibly...

    She understands that Tarkin means business. She understands that the Empire didn't built the ultimate WMD just to scare the others into submission, but that the Death Star will have to destroy at least one planet to make an example, to show and clarify beyond doubt that the Empire has no qualm whatsoever to do such an unbelievable, wretched act to maintain its supremacy.

    Given the situation and the context I don't see why she should have had any reason not to believe that Tarkin intended what he announced, add to this his: I grow tired of asking this. So it'll be the last time. Where is the Rebel base?

    She would never consciously betray the Rebellion
    (Vader) but as a consequence of her Dantooine lie Alderaan would have to suffer, she must have been aware of that possibility when she didn't provide Tarkin with the location of the real hidden base.

    I'd also say that despite Luke's urge to unite with his father in ESB, Leia's decision in ANH may have been one essential reason to say "no". Yoda, anticipating that Luke wouldn't be able to resist such temptation, told him: If you leave now, help them you could. But you would destroy all for which they have fought and suffered.
    I'm certain that Luke was aware how much Leia had suffered because she made that choice in ANH. By jumping into the abyss he made sure that her sacrifice wasn't for nothing.
     
  20. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Right, but she had hoped by that point that the droids would find Obi-wan and they would make it to Alderaan and then get on to Yavin 4. And that Tarkin would waste time by taking the Death Star to Dantooine.
     
  21. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 5, 2001
    It's impossible to say for sure. One thing that is quite certain, if the Force gave her clear foresight into what would happen, the best option would seemingly be for her to name Alderaan itself. That way Tarkin would destroy the planet immediately, which he would do anyway while also thinking he'd taken out the Rebel base. Thereby providing the perfect cover & safety for the real Alliance base. However, that could change all of the subsequent events, including the DS going to Yavin & exposing itself to the Rebel attack. So perhaps even with hindsight she'd be best to do exactly as she did.
    In those few seconds she was probably aware of many possibilities. Including that the plans were with the Alliance, who would hopefully soon be successful in destroying the DS.
    Except she didn't sacrifice anything. Alderaan was a victim of a crime perpetrated by Tarkin. She had nothing to do with the decision & her answer to his question had no bearing on the outcome. The only planet she attempted to sacrifice was Dantooine. If it was destroyed & lives were lost that would be on her. She would've sacrificed those lives. RE Alderaan, the word you're looking for instead of sacrifice is risk. Leia's decision was to sacrifice Dantooine & risk reprisals to Alderaan, if events played out in a certain way.
     
  22. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 8, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2018
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  23. ImpreciseStormtrooper

    ImpreciseStormtrooper Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 8, 2016
    Wasn't a very compelling list of complaints has to be said. Good responses.
     
  24. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    @ImpreciseStormtrooper

    Thank you, unfortunately the thread has been closed, so I was unable to post one reply, so I do it here:

    Lt. Hija said: In ANH it's just a "magnetic field" (and referred to as such twice in the film)

    @Iron_lord said: Dodonna also says "The Death Star is heavily shielded."

    ["The shaft is] ray-shielded". ;)

    Apparently this could mean that the magnetic field also has a ray-shielding function, so a laserblast attack by an opponent wouldn't do much damage and they'd have to use proton torpedos, bombs or else which would require an attack at close quarters which then would be countered by the Death Star's turbolasers.

     
  25. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Whoa, I just realized that ROTS references ANH with it's use of ray shields to trap the Palpatine/Obi-Wan/Anakin trio (POWA trio for short ;))!