Saga Revenge of the Sith VS. Return of the Jedi

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Darkslayer, Dec 9, 2013.

?

Which is better

Episode III: Revenge of the Sith 26 vote(s) 63.4%
Episode VI: Return of the Jedi 15 vote(s) 36.6%
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  1. Samnz Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 2
    So saving Han is just as important as Luke's confrontation with Vader and the destruction of the Empre and therefore part of the MAIN story? Sorry, I don't agree and my disagreement has nothing to do with "Lucas revisionsm". 4-6 was mainly about Luke, with 1-6 it became mostly about Anakin/Vader. 4-6 main storyline followed Luke (and the others, sure, but secondaríly) in his desire to bring back peace to the galaxy.

    Saving Han was in no way relevant to this. It was just a side-plot that some, including myself, find annoying. I dislike it the most because it's the culmination of what went wrong with Han's character. He should have paid off Jabba the Hutt right after ANH. That was ANH's lesson for him which he had obviously, but also unfortunately, forgotten when the movie ended! ANH made us think he learnt that friends might be more important than money. Life is not only about money.
    Sadly, ESB destroyed that. Suddenly, Han was too grasping and greedy to pay off Jabba and wanted to turn his back on his friends again - just at the moment when they needed him. That's terrible.
    So Jabba's palace was a logical conclusion to an utterly illogical side-plot in my eyes. Even worse, the Jabba sequence made everyone go stupid. Luke declares himself a Jedi for no reason. Droids torture other droids. Boba Fett allows himself to be killed by a blind guy. Jabba refers to frozen Han as his "favourite decoration" he won't give up, yet two minutes he watches Leia destroying his "favourite decoration" and enjoys it with a big laugh....
    ...I have to stop here because I went into basher's territory.

    I don't think he has hurt anything. You can still love their friendship. That just doesn't make it part of the "MAIN storyline".
    Last edited by Samnz, Dec 12, 2013
  2. Han Burgundy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 28, 2013
    star 3
    Part of the reason Han's capture/rescue works within the saga is that I think, if you're watching the saga front-to-back, to have such a purely character driven subplot, one that exists accross two separate films, so late in the game, really adds a nice sense of variety to the saga. It's a bit of a detour, sure, but a delightful one and something that highlights the films as personal stories about people who care about eachother. And seeing as the OT can't raise the visual stakes above the PT just by virtue of being older films, it's nice that they were able to raise the emotional stakes of the saga by doing something the PT never did; putting one of the main characters in genuine mortal danger in the middle of the trilogy.
    Last edited by Han Burgundy, Dec 12, 2013
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  3. ezekiel22x Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2002
    star 4
    I like the idea of the rescue--in fact I think thematically it works great with the idea of Luke being a Jedi defined positively by his attachments--it's just the overall execution of the sequence lacks something for me. A Tatooine revisit strikes me as unimaginative (and maybe doubly so for a film that culminates with another Death Star), the metal bikini is a farce, and the action choreography doesn't do much for me either. The whole thing strikes me as an episode of a non-existent Star Wars TV series leading up to the release of Return of the Jedi.
    Jarren_Lee-Saber likes this.
  4. Carbon1985 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2013
    star 3
    Keep going, I love when all of you 'Saga' fans start bashing the OT! There is nothing more funny then listening to TFN 'Saga' fans say how much they LOVE the SW saga, yet they have no problem bashing the 2nd part of the saga. [face_laugh] Come on, give us alittle more bashing of those movies you profess to love so much! :p

    What I was referring to was when the movies were just Episode 4-6, or from 1977-83, the fate of Han Solo was a HUGE plot point that was talked about from 1980-1983 by all SW fans. Would Han die? Would they ever find Han? Who was this Jabba the Hutt, and what did he look like? Nobody talked about Vader's redemption from 1980-83, because it wasn't part of the main story, as it was a subplot that Lucas put in when he wrote ROTJ to tie up the trilogy, so he didn't have to make the ST.

    Again, I am not arguing whether the sequence is good or not, because that is all of opinion, and your opinion is just as valid as mine. What I am saying is that in 1983, the Han Solo rescue was just as much of interest to the audience as Luke finding out if Vader was his father. The problem is you are all looking at ROTJ under the 1-6 Saga Rose Tinted Glasses, and goes to my point that Lucas has made the newer audience look at many of the OT plot points in the wrong context.
    Barbecue17 and Force Smuggler like this.
  5. Darkslayer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2013
    star 4
    [face_skull]
  6. I Are The Internets Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 7
  7. Han Burgundy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 28, 2013
    star 3
    I agree, actually. I think ROTJ is, as a film, overall helped by the existence of the PT. I just think that it was already lacking in grandeur when it was merely the finale of a trilogy; as the finale of a six-part saga, it feels almost petty. I don't mean to slam it too hard, though. It's a film I love, and the emotional content is some of the best in the saga.
    Jarren_Lee-Saber likes this.
  8. Samnz Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 2
    Well, and I love when bashing "Saga" fans start bashing other "Saga" fans for bashing the "wrong" part of the Saga. Given your history of bashing, I don't think it's your authority to lecture me about my posting style.
    I like the whole saga, absolutely, but I won't succumb to geek culture group thinking and apologize for my preference of the PT. The sacroscanct status of the OT on many parts of the OT might have led you to a certain oversensitiveness to the slightest OT-critisms.

    I do very well realize that they couldn't have solved ESB's cliffhanger within five minutes. I see that. That would have done no justice.
    We could have reached middle ground with about 20 minutes, though.

    But that's inevitable, isn't it?
    Whenever you add a new chapter, there are some aspects reinforced and others left behind or even weakened. The whole ending of ROTJ will probably be weaked by Episode VII, again.

    I agree.
    Last edited by Samnz, Dec 12, 2013
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  9. Carbon1985 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2013
    star 3
    My point is that I get called a PT basher here because of my criticism's of the PT, so I am going to call you out (just like other here) as an OT basher for your criticism's of the OT. ;) The difference between you and me is I LOVE the OT, and the complete story it tells, and I don't need the PT. I like parts of the PT and the macro story it tells about how a society goes to hell when a dictator takes over. But what I don't like is the characters, or Anakin's story, so I will never love the PT. I am still an OOT guy at heart, and its the perfect trilogy to me. :)

    If you love the PT like yourself (which is cool with me), you NEED the OT to make it a whole story, so you are essentially bashing 1/2 of a story that you profess to love about? Or you are essentially bored with the 1/2 of the OT that focuses on Han/Leia and not Luke/Vader. The PT is an incomplete story, so just loving those 3 movies is like taking a mid-term at college, and never taking the final exam. ;)
    Last edited by Carbon1985, Dec 12, 2013
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  10. Visivious Drakarn Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 20, 2013
    star 2
    Saving friends theme is a good theme. But only if it's purpose is to push the story forward. Saving Leia aboard the DS was good. Saving Luke from wampa was... For the purpose of explaining Hamill's car accident. Saving Han is a parallel storyline that has nothing to do with the general OT plot.

    Above you said: The problem is you are all looking at ROTJ under the 1-6 Saga Rose Tinted Glasses, and goes to my point that Lucas has made the newer audience look at many of the OT plot points in the wrong context. The same principle, you're looking the PT through the OT glasses. The PT effectively concludes it's story. Just as the OT does not require the PT, that's how the PT does not require the OT.
    Samnz and Jarren_Lee-Saber like this.
  11. Force Smuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    The whole in debt to Jabba arc was important to the story. We see Han turn from a mercenary who only cares for himself and the money to someone who cares about others and not the money. Without Han, Luke wouldn't have destroyed the Death Star, Luke would have died on Hoth, the Shield Generator would not have been destroyed which would let the Rebels destroy the 2nd Death Star etc. Without freeing Han and ending Jabba, Han would have remained a man with a death mark, or remained in Carbonite and the Rebels would have lost the war.
  12. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4

    Here's what you fail to understand, Carbon1985. Samnz's post was not a bash -- it was criticism. He laid out his issues with a specific aspect of the OT, detailing why it didn't work for him. And that's perfectly legitimate. None of these movies is perfect and they're all subject to interpretation. Having an issue with Han's rescue in ROTJ is no more of a bash than finding the Padmé-Anakin romance unconvincing or taking issue with how Anakin and Obi-Wan's relationship is presented. People discuss these things at length. Allow me to give you an example of a "bash":

    This is a post that you, Carbon1985, liked.

    It adds nothing of substance. The poster does not say why AOTC is a "cinematic abortion." The poster additionally makes a logical fallacy through argumentum ad populum in regards to ESB's quality. And then there's the much appreciated insinuation that those who love the prequels do so only because they are "fanboys" responding how the "Lucasfilm propaganda machine" has told them to.

    Nowhere in this post is any sort of example or discussable point made. It just dismisses one of the films wholesale. Now, the poster has the right to express his opinion, of course, but it's bashing precisely because it provides nothing to build a discussion upon. Samnz's post, on the other hand, could open new questions into what was good/bad about a particular scene, why people like it or don't, and how it relates to the story at large.
    Last edited by PiettsHat, Dec 12, 2013
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  13. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2009
    star 4
    OK, enough's enough - no more complaining about 'bashing'. The policy is films, not fans.

    Like it or not, if someone wants to 'bash' any of the films in a manner which is in accordance with the JC Forums Terms of Service, it's permitted. Attacking someone for doing so is not.
  14. I Are The Internets Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 7
    They're just movies. Not the law of civilization.
  15. Darkslayer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2013
    star 4
    Mod edit: Not appropriate
    Last edited by Darth_Nub, Dec 14, 2013
  16. Pensivia Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2013
    star 4
    I didn't vote in the poll because I don't know if I could really say which one is "better." I just know that overall, I enjoy ROTS more. The Luke-Vader-Emperor scenes and Vader's redemption are def in my short list of top saga scenes overall, but I think I could rewatch ROTS all the way through more times without getting tired of it whereas I think I would get burned out quicker and want to fast forward through the Jabba and Ewok parts of ROTJ. And even though I love the Luke-Vader-Emperor scenes in ROTJ, the scenes that are intercut with them (Endor and 2nd Death Star battles) are not as compelling to me as both parts of the cuts between the Anakin-Obi duel and the Yoda-Sidious duel.
    -Jedi Joe- likes this.
  17. ObiAlKenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2012
    star 2
    Even though I enjoyed ROTS, the winner is Return of the Jedi.

    The final confrontation of Luke and Vader, in front of the Emperor....Vader's redemption....Lando piloting the Falcon in a MUCH Better space battle than any prequel had to offer....Luke saving everyone from Jabba the Hutt.....Jedi hands down.
    Carbon1985 likes this.
  18. I Are The Internets Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 7
    ROTJ is also the SW I've watched the least.
    Legolas Skywalker likes this.
  19. Garrett Atkins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 11, 2013
    star 4
    Luke is much more relatable than the "greatly intelligent" Anakin.
    Last edited by Garrett Atkins, Dec 17, 2013
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  20. Force Smuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    At least Palpatine is amazing in both.
    Though ROTJ Palpatine is better.
    Carbon1985 likes this.
  21. Garrett Atkins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 11, 2013
    star 4
    Sure, but Palpatine went waaaaaaay over the top at the end of ROTS IMO. He was fantastic in the first half.
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  22. GGrievous Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2005
    star 5
    :(
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  23. Force Smuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    That's why I said ROTJ Palpatine was better.
  24. I Are The Internets Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 7
    That's right. Bow before me puny user.
  25. GGrievous Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2005
    star 5
    [citation needed]
    Jarren_Lee-Saber likes this.
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